«
UK-20709
UK-20710
UK-20711
»
04356
173.0 雨
SC=16, FS=3 TS=24

(v7.0)


(v1.0)

UK-20710
SC=16, FS=3, TS=24, IDS=⿱雨⿺鬼⿰三三, Glyph updated, 2024-05.
No glyph change, IRG 62.
Kept in Main Set, pending further discussion of the encoding model for Taoist characters, IRG 57.
Attributes:



Review Comments

Type
Description
Submitter
Evidence
UNCLEAR_EVIDENCE
WS2021 v1.0
[ Resolved ]
It seems that the evidence does not satisfy IRG PnP 2.1.1.c, so it should be rejected.
IRG PnP 2.1.1.c says: characters must be used in script as characters in text. Logos and images used separately from running text are not acceptable.
The character should be categorized as logo as other two logos on the left side.
Xieyang WANG
Individual
2021-05-23 02:00:44 UTC
Evidence
UNCLEAR_EVIDENCE
WS2021 v2.0
[ Unresolved ]
The character contains ☷ (U+2637,坤卦) which is not a CJKUI. So this character should not be encoded.
Xieyang WANG
Individual
2022-03-13 09:15:23 UTC
Evidence
UNCLEAR_EVIDENCE (Response)
WS2021 v3.0
[ Unresolved ]
Incorporating a non-CJKUI element such as ☷ is not a valid reason not to encode this character. There are other CJK unified ideographs which include elements from other scripts; in WS2021 we have Hanja-Hangul hybrid characters with ᆨ such as KC-00811, KC-01727, KC-02286, KC-03983, KC-03520; and characters derived from Latin script symbols such as UTC-03225 (derived from ℔ pound sign), UTC-03226 (氵+ ʒ = fluidram), and UTC-03227 (氵+ ℥ = fluidounce).
Andrew WEST
UK
2022-09-06 15:29:59 UTC
Data for Unihan
UNIHAN_DATA
WS2021 v4.0
kStrange candidate
Eiso CHAN
Individual
2023-02-01 05:22:33 UTC
Modified
Data for Unihan
UNIHAN_DATA
WS2021 v5.0
👀
Ken LUNDE
UTC
2023-07-07 02:45:19 UTC
Evidence
UNCLEAR_EVIDENCE
WS2021 v5.0
[ Unresolved ]
Should be postponed according to experts' opinion in IRGN2579.
Xieyang WANG
Individual
2023-10-17 14:34:34 UTC
Evidence
UNCLEAR_EVIDENCE
WS2021 v5.0
[ Unresolved ]
Every character of Bagua(八卦) can be used in this way and the radical 雨+鬼 can be replace by 雨 or 鬼. This will leads to a set of 64*3=192 this kind of characters. So I sugget to postpone or pending the character and wait until we know how to handle the Taoist characters.

道教諱秘字專用造字集 Big5 Version
Xieyang WANG
Individual
2023-10-18 03:51:19 UTC
Glyph Design & Normalization
NORMALIZATION
WS2021 v6.0
[ Unresolved ]
Normalize to ⿱雨⿺鬼⿰三三.

Per UCV 441, 鬼 and ⿱甶儿 are unifiable.
HUANG Junliang
Individual
2024-02-20 15:09:15 UTC
Glyph Design & Normalization
NORMALIZATION
WS2021 v6.0
[ Unresolved ]
Agree to normalize the 鬼 component as suggested by Huang Junliang.
Andrew WEST
UK
2024-02-20 16:20:35 UTC
Evidence
EVIDENCE
WS2021 v6.0
[ Unresolved ]
No reason to postpone this character, as it is clearly attested, and required for the digital transcription of the text used for the primary evidence.

There are only seven other related characters (⿱雨⿺鬼☰, ⿱雨⿺鬼☴, ⿱雨⿺鬼☶, ⿱雨⿺鬼☵, ⿱雨⿺鬼☲, ⿱雨⿺鬼☳, ⿱雨⿺鬼☱) that require encoding, and these may submitted for WS2024 or a later working set.

《道法會元》(明正統道藏本)卷83 folio 13a:
Andrew WEST
UK
2024-02-20 16:30:49 UTC
Other
COMMENT
WS2021 v6.0
[ Unresolved ]
I still do not suggest IRG to encode the characters in this way even all characters will be finely collected and submiited one by one in future. There will be at least 10000 characters to be encoded in this way. Supporting all Daoist characters will become unnecessary burden to most devices if there is a certain number of Daoist characters encoded in future. This may lead to that national bodies and companies stop trying to support the whole CJKUI character set, which may cause more unexpacted problems.
I stick to my opinion although I must repect IRG's decision. And I will suggest Chinese government not to support these characters in future version of national standards.
Xieyang WANG
Individual
2024-03-08 02:28:47 UTC
Evidence
EVIDENCE
WS2021 v6.0
[ Unresolved ]
八卦 with 雨+鬼

八卦 with 鬼

The amount of this kind of characters is only 8*number when talking only the 8 Diagrams(八卦). But the amount will be big if all the 64 Diagrams and the 8 Diagrams(八卦) are considered. The amount will become 72*number(雨、雨+鬼、鬼、雨+食、雨+口……)
Xieyang WANG
Individual
2024-03-18 00:57:21 UTC
Attributes
ATTRIBUTES_IDS
WS2021 v6.0
[ Resolved ]
Current IDS using ⿰三三 instead of ☷ is acceptable because IDS is only intended to indicate the visible structure of a character, not its semantic composition (which is why we use 月 'moon' for the left meat radical). There is no need to extend the syntax for IDS to include 八卦 symbols.
Andrew WEST
UK
2024-03-20 19:23:50 UTC
Glyph Design & Normalization
NORMALIZATION
WS2021 v6.0
[ Resolved ]
Although the Ming woodblock edition of the Zhengtong Daoist Canon 《正統道藏》 consistently writes 鬼 without the 厶 component, this does not seem to be specifically a Daoist practice, because the same glyph form for 鬼 is also seen in contemporary non-Daoist texts, for example in the 鬼 section of the Ming Zhengde edition of 《四聲篇海》 almost all characters with left-side 鬼 are written without the 厶 component:



On the other hand, some Qing dynasty Daoist texts such as 《廣成儀制》consistently write 鬼 with a 厶 component (see UK-20751 etc.). Furthermore, in the modern typeset edition of the Daoist Canon (《中華道藏》, 2004), all characters with a 鬼 component are normalized to use 鬼 with 厶, as can be seen from this example from 《太上玄靈斗姆大聖元君本命延生心經》 (《正統道藏本》 edition shown first):





If the editors of an authoritative work such as 《中華道藏》 think it is appropriate to normalize 鬼 in all cases then I think it is OK for the UK submission to also normalize 鬼. Therefore, for consistency with UK-20737, UK-20751, UK-20752, UK-20754, UK-20755, UK-20756, UK-20757, UK-20760, and UK-20764, as well as those characters to be included in our WS2024 submission, we accept Huang Junliang's suggestion to normalize the 鬼 component of UK-20710.
Andrew WEST
UK
2024-03-20 20:25:34 UTC
Glyph Design & Normalization
NORMALIZATION
WS2021 v6.0
[ Resolved ]
Many text in 正統道藏 can be dated back to 宋/元 dynasty. To supplement Andrew's comment #15454, the characters in 龍龕手鑑(南宋刊本)also consistently omit the 厶 component when the 鬼 is the left component.


▲ 龍龕手鑑(臺北故宮藏南宋刊本)卷2 folio 60a

See also different 魁 in historical context:



▲ https://zi.tools/zi/%E9%AD%81
HUANG Junliang
Individual
2024-03-20 21:04:39 UTC

Meeting Minutes

DateDescription
IRG #62
2024-03-20 (Wed)
11:08 am +0800
Recorded by CHEN Zhuang
bottom left glyph to be normalized. but ids to be discussed in irg62.
IRG #62
2024-03-20 (Wed)
11:10 am +0800
Recorded by CHEN Zhuang
bottom left glyph to be normalized.
IRG #62
2024-03-20 (Wed)
11:17 am +0800
Recorded by CHEN Zhuang
no glyph change.
IRG #57
2021-09-17 (Fri)
11:01 am +0800
Recorded by Henry CHAN
Kept in Main Set, pending further discussion of the encoding model for Taoist characters (automatically processed by IRG ORT Manager)

Attribute Changes

VersionDescription
2.0
For 04356, add Discussion Record "Kept in Main Set, pending further discussion of the encoding model for Taoist characters, IRG 57."
7.0
For 04356, add Discussion Record "No glyph change, IRG 62."
7.0
For 04356, add Discussion Record "SC=16, FS=3, TS=24, IDS=⿱雨⿺鬼⿰三三, Glyph updated, 2024-05."
7.0
For 04356, change Stroke Count to 16
7.0
For 04356, change First Stroke to 3
7.0
For 04356, change Total Stroke Count to 24

Glyph Changes

Source ReferenceGlyph
UK-20710
1.0
🢂
7.0

Raw Info
groupUK
a) Source referenceUK-20710
b) PUA Code of TTFE0E5
c) KangXi Radical Code (Primary)173.0
d) Stroke Count (Primary)14
e) First Stroke (Primary)4
f) Secondary KX Radical CodeN/A
f) a. Secondary Stroke CountN/A
f) b. Secondary First StrokeN/A
g) Total Stroke Count22
i) IDS⿱雨⿺⿱甶儿⿰三三
j) Similar/ Variants N/A
k1) References to evidence documents《梵音斗科》(清雍正初刊本)卷下 folio 10
k2) Images FilenamesUK-20707-001.jpg
l) Other InformationN/A
m1) Previous IRG WSN/A
m2) Sequence No.N/A